Mar 22 AT 10:29 AM Nick Gray 30 Comments

Apple tried to negotiate with Samsung on patent disputes before the madness began

android-apple Image via: laihiu with Creative Commons

Through a filing with the California Federal Court, Apple claims that Samsung is knowingly infringing on Apple’s patents since they met with Samsung back in 2010 to discuss the matter. The documents show that Apple met with Samsung on four separate occasions and was shown a presentation named “Samsung’s Use of Apple Patents in Smartphones” which detailed Samsung’s infringements of patents ’002 and ’381 along with several others.

On or about August 4, 2010, Apple representatives met with Samsung in Korea and showed a presentation titled 'Samsung's Use of Apple Patents in Smartphones.' This presentation emphasized Samsung's copying of the iPhone and identified two of the patents-in-suit (the '002 and '381 patents), giving Samsung actual notice of at least these patents, and many more.

On or about August 26, 2010, Apple sent Samsung an electronic archive file containing claim charts further illustrating Samsung's infringement of Apple patents. A presentation document that accompanied these claim charts identified the '002 and '381 patents as two patents that Samsung products infringed, and it substantiated these allegations with text from the patents and photographs of Samsung devices illustrating infringing functionality. Apple later presented these slides to Samsung at a meeting in Cupertino, California on or about September 9, 2010.Apple

Apple is hoping that this new information will persuade the courts to rule in Apple’s favor in their attacks against Samsung, but we have a feeling that it won’t be that simple. Since Samsung didn’t negotiate a deal with Apple and produced new phones based on the same technology, we assume Samsung was not convinced that their devices actually infringed on Apple’s patents.

The good news is that back in 2010 Apple was willing to negotiate with Samsung about possible patent infringements. This suggests that there is still hope that some of the patent battles between Apple and other Android OEMs may be settled out of court without the need for the courts to issue import bans on the devices we love.

Does this new information change your opinion about Apple and its approach to protecting its intellectual property?

Source: The Verge

Nick is a tech enthusiast who has a soft spot for HTC and its devices. He started HTCsource.com (the first HTC blog) back in 2007 and later joined the Android and Me family in the summer of 2010.

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  • Jake

    Fuck apple for ever!

    • co.ag.2005

      wow, intelligent post.

      • smity

        apple are wankers. there iphone looks shit with a tiny screen. samsungs are slim and correctly sized

        • Burnd

          These comments aren’t worrying me as much as the amount of given +1′s. And “wankers”? Seriously? :p

  • Ironzey Lewis

    I hate apple just as much as anyone else here but I do think they ave a point.

    Pretty much all the tech I like has SOMETHING in common with an equivalent apple device. At least now Android seems to has evolved to the point where they don’t need to emulate the fruit company and it is starting to show with deices like the Note and all those Samsung tablets. Going forward I can’t see apple having much room to complain.

    • maniak

      Samsung has an equally relevant point.
      You could argue that all apple devices have something in common with many other devices.

  • http://htcsource.com Nick Gray

    Anyone know why Microsoft has been able to pull off patent licensing deals with Android phone makers and Apple hasn’t? Is Microsoft’s patent portfolio better?

    • Ironzey Lewis

      I think it my have something to do with apple taking it personally. I seems to remember SJ thought android was stolen and wanting to destroy it.

    • Eric Rossman

      Microsoft offered a fair licensing deal. Apple isn’t in it to make friends. I do notice that they specifically target Android hardware vendors that also make parts for Apple.

  • oddball

    Honestly apple has done so much claiming of infringement and made so many ridiculous demands I don’t blame Samsung for ignoring them. Even before the patent wars began apple was throwing around claims that everything infringed on “their” property �(you know any rectangular glass fronted object) and the recent madness has proved how far they are willing to go to win (photoshopping evidence, d�emanding basic future development plans, etc.)

  • spazby

    everybody is just trying to make money, that’s the nature of it… let them fight it out, they will settle in the end.

  • NickGrayManFan

    Nick Gray is SO CUTE! <3

  • Grant

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  • Nate B.

    There are simple concepts that make it that TYPE of device and Apple will sue you over. It isn’t logical. Like, if it has an unlock screen. They will sue you over that. Well, not everyone wants a pin, password. Even if it is a slide to unlock, it’s a different one. Androids mostly pivot (ICS does anyways). Apple doesn’t want room for any other company to succeed.

  • kwills88

    Biggest mistake Samsung made was that they create stuff for Apple and continue to make them, then realize “holy shit, if we can make these things for apple X iOS, why not make them into our own products, but better them”…Sammy has came along way from feature phones to being the one that’s taking a major bite out of apple, I guess this is a classic case of biting the hands that feed you.

  • thekaz

    Oh, I am sure Apple made their offer very reasonable, too *rolls eyes*

    Their lawyers know what they are doing. They made an offer somewhat akin to “you give us 25% of every phone you sell” so that when Samsung laughed them off, they could come back in court and say “we TRIED to play nicely!”

  • http://www.jimtravis.com jimtravis

    Just because Apple thought Samsung infringed on their patents, doesn’t mean there are / were any infringements. Sometimes I think Apple believes they have patented the air you breathe. Apple (an other) patents are frequently so broad, and so vague, you wonder why the patents were granted in the first place. In many cases, Apple was not the first to implement a particular action like a lock screen, but they were the first to patent a specific deviation of it.

    Judging only by the posts I see on tech sites, it seems Samsung wins some patent battles, as does Apple. So if some of the patent are thrown out, or ruled no infringements, that is less $ Samsung has to pay although we don’t know if the legal fee exceed the amount saved. Apple is no saint in this matter as well. If I remember correctly, Apple paid out quite a bit on patents they infringed on with their widely successful iPod, and even the name iPhone belonged to someone else which cost them some $ after the fact.

    I personally would like to see all these patent wars go away, and more importantly, the patent office move into a 21st century mindset. Some of these ridiculous, vague, overly broad, common sense patents that the office seems to award continuously should not have been granted, and should be revoked.

    • http://www.ndroidgamers.com B2L

      I couldn’t agree with you more, although in order for these patent wars to end, the patent system needs to be fully reformed.

  • some1

    Apple is so stupid!! SAMSUNG makes their processor o of course they will know their hardware capabilities. their software is a given, everyone and their mom knows their codes and how they work!! but fuck it!! if they want lose out on their SUPPOSEDLY better than tegra processors than let them keep it up. with that said it funny how they have samsung make their processors. and doesnt samsung make more androids. anyways money talks and the android getting more money and starting to talk more. while apple is getting shut up

  • Oskar Wismierski

    WTF Apple?! Just admit that you are slowly loosing ur market leader seat and deal with it in a grown up way..

  • http://www.technogasms.com Sean Riley

    “Stop or we’ll sue you” is negotiating in only the strictest of senses. Typically that comes after negotiation has already broken down and in this case it seems like that was Apple’s first move.

  • honourbound68

    can’t wait to see what sammy pulls out of their sleeves. their lawyers must’ve thought they had a winnable case in order to reject apples “negotiations”. the only thing that would suck is if Sammy actually lost. Like it or not, sammy is the top android phone manufacturer and it would a huge loss to us Android fans if we couldn’t get some of their products in our markets.

  • WickedToby741

    Just because Apple went to Samsung beforehand doesn’t mean they were at all reasonable about it. They probably demanded some ridiculous amount of compensation from them for the patents that Samsung was “infringing.”

  • Hall Lo

    “if you can’t beat ‘em, bite ‘em”
    Apple isn’t going to stop regarding to how they think Android was copying them. Actually I wonder, why is my friend’s HP laptop looks so much like the ASUS laptop? They both have a screen, and a full size keyboard, and a trackpad! And 3 USB ports!

  • deckrider

    Don’t most shakedowns begin with a visit to the proprietor’s shop so as to convince the proprietor to pay “insurance” (licensing fees)?

  • Matt

    How are you iphoners enjoying that cool notification pulldown bar?

  • Eric Rossman

    Hold up, I read this article a few times trying to figure out if Samsung actually admitted to anything. More so I am supposed to take the word from Apple as truth? I am sure that they did try to show a patent infringement case to Samsung, this is as much a form of evidence as if I littered pamphlets onto Microsoft’s campus claiming that I patented the concept of a graphical user interface and am demanding my royalties, then I sued microsoft for tossing my stupid butt to the curb. Come on people are we all the gullible?..

    This Apple patent war is essentially calling the public consumer too stupid to differentiate the word Samsung and actually believe that that is an Apple product. Oh they must have opened the case on the Apple device and seen the Samsung logo’ed components and become confused. This must be why the iPhone and iPad’s do not have removable backs.. just speculating.

    -good stuff Nick, you definitely give food for thought :) -Eric

  • Kelly

    It’s a pretty safe bet that there is *far* more going on behind the scenes than all the patent-related news stories talk about. Samsung and Apple are in a knife fight over patents, so it would be easy to assume they’re mortal enemies. But Samsung makes the displays for the iPad 3. Microsoft is known to be bullying all vendors of Android phones with patents, but I guarantee you that for every deal where $(android_oem) pays Microsoft $(royalty) for each Android phone sold as a result of this “bullying”, another less-publicized deal exists where Microsoft pays $(android_oem) $(royalty * some decimal number) for every Windows phone they sell.

  • A World Without Apple.

    Wow, So much hate for Apple here. All of you need to ask yourself a simple question, If your so called heroes of the Android market succeed in killing the self made giant called “Apple”.. Where will your innovation come from then, its all good and well to steal technology but once your supply of technology is gone you have nothing. It seriously makes me wonder about the intelligence of some people. Look at the history people, the smart phone industry was a steaming pile before Apple released the iPhone. The only contenders then were Microsoft, enter Android (Google) the same people accused of spying on you and releasing your information to undesirable sources. They team up with multiple vendors under the illusion of being open source, as if thats not bad enough instead of coming up with ground breaking technology and smart software innovation they copy Apple. Now before all of you say “How dare you” I invite you to look at screen shots of your beloved devices when Android was in beta.. Look’s substantially different than the iPhone don’t you think ? It looks a lot more like Windows Mobile wouldn’t you agree… That’s because when Apple released the iPhone and Android was in it’s infancy Windows Mobile was the popular smart phone.. Seeing a pattern yet…. So I ask you if the Android platform and Mobile phone makers like samsung succeed in killing the iPhone and Windows Mobile you had better hope that you don’t need any more innovation..

  1. JakeGuest 3 years ago

    Fuck apple for ever!

  2. I hate apple just as much as anyone else here but I do think they ave a point.

    Pretty much all the tech I like has SOMETHING in common with an equivalent apple device. At least now Android seems to has evolved to the point where they don’t need to emulate the fruit company and it is starting to show with deices like the Note and all those Samsung tablets. Going forward I can’t see apple having much room to complain.

    • maniakGuest 3 years ago

      Samsung has an equally relevant point.
      You could argue that all apple devices have something in common with many other devices.

  3. Anyone know why Microsoft has been able to pull off patent licensing deals with Android phone makers and Apple hasn’t? Is Microsoft’s patent portfolio better?

  4. Honestly apple has done so much claiming of infringement and made so many ridiculous demands I don’t blame Samsung for ignoring them. Even before the patent wars began apple was throwing around claims that everything infringed on “their” property �(you know any rectangular glass fronted object) and the recent madness has proved how far they are willing to go to win (photoshopping evidence, d�emanding basic future development plans, etc.)

  5. everybody is just trying to make money, that’s the nature of it… let them fight it out, they will settle in the end.

  6. NickGrayManFanGuest 3 years ago

    Nick Gray is SO CUTE! <3

  7. GrantGuest 3 years ago

    Error 503 Service Unavailable

    Service Unavailable

    Error Information:

    XID: 1794987315

    This means WordPress has a fatal error because of something like (1) PHP syntax error, (2) ran out of memory, or (3) crashed PHP. Check your error log for details.

  8. There are simple concepts that make it that TYPE of device and Apple will sue you over. It isn’t logical. Like, if it has an unlock screen. They will sue you over that. Well, not everyone wants a pin, password. Even if it is a slide to unlock, it’s a different one. Androids mostly pivot (ICS does anyways). Apple doesn’t want room for any other company to succeed.

  9. Biggest mistake Samsung made was that they create stuff for Apple and continue to make them, then realize “holy shit, if we can make these things for apple X iOS, why not make them into our own products, but better them”…Sammy has came along way from feature phones to being the one that’s taking a major bite out of apple, I guess this is a classic case of biting the hands that feed you.

  10. Oh, I am sure Apple made their offer very reasonable, too *rolls eyes*

    Their lawyers know what they are doing. They made an offer somewhat akin to “you give us 25% of every phone you sell” so that when Samsung laughed them off, they could come back in court and say “we TRIED to play nicely!”

  11. Just because Apple thought Samsung infringed on their patents, doesn’t mean there are / were any infringements. Sometimes I think Apple believes they have patented the air you breathe. Apple (an other) patents are frequently so broad, and so vague, you wonder why the patents were granted in the first place. In many cases, Apple was not the first to implement a particular action like a lock screen, but they were the first to patent a specific deviation of it.

    Judging only by the posts I see on tech sites, it seems Samsung wins some patent battles, as does Apple. So if some of the patent are thrown out, or ruled no infringements, that is less $ Samsung has to pay although we don’t know if the legal fee exceed the amount saved. Apple is no saint in this matter as well. If I remember correctly, Apple paid out quite a bit on patents they infringed on with their widely successful iPod, and even the name iPhone belonged to someone else which cost them some $ after the fact.

    I personally would like to see all these patent wars go away, and more importantly, the patent office move into a 21st century mindset. Some of these ridiculous, vague, overly broad, common sense patents that the office seems to award continuously should not have been granted, and should be revoked.

  12. some1Guest 3 years ago

    Apple is so stupid!! SAMSUNG makes their processor o of course they will know their hardware capabilities. their software is a given, everyone and their mom knows their codes and how they work!! but fuck it!! if they want lose out on their SUPPOSEDLY better than tegra processors than let them keep it up. with that said it funny how they have samsung make their processors. and doesnt samsung make more androids. anyways money talks and the android getting more money and starting to talk more. while apple is getting shut up

  13. WTF Apple?! Just admit that you are slowly loosing ur market leader seat and deal with it in a grown up way..

  14. “Stop or we’ll sue you” is negotiating in only the strictest of senses. Typically that comes after negotiation has already broken down and in this case it seems like that was Apple’s first move.

  15. can’t wait to see what sammy pulls out of their sleeves. their lawyers must’ve thought they had a winnable case in order to reject apples “negotiations”. the only thing that would suck is if Sammy actually lost. Like it or not, sammy is the top android phone manufacturer and it would a huge loss to us Android fans if we couldn’t get some of their products in our markets.

  16. Just because Apple went to Samsung beforehand doesn’t mean they were at all reasonable about it. They probably demanded some ridiculous amount of compensation from them for the patents that Samsung was “infringing.”

  17. “if you can’t beat ‘em, bite ‘em”
    Apple isn’t going to stop regarding to how they think Android was copying them. Actually I wonder, why is my friend’s HP laptop looks so much like the ASUS laptop? They both have a screen, and a full size keyboard, and a trackpad! And 3 USB ports!

  18. deckriderGuest 3 years ago

    Don’t most shakedowns begin with a visit to the proprietor’s shop so as to convince the proprietor to pay “insurance” (licensing fees)?

  19. MattGuest 3 years ago

    How are you iphoners enjoying that cool notification pulldown bar?

  20. Hold up, I read this article a few times trying to figure out if Samsung actually admitted to anything. More so I am supposed to take the word from Apple as truth? I am sure that they did try to show a patent infringement case to Samsung, this is as much a form of evidence as if I littered pamphlets onto Microsoft’s campus claiming that I patented the concept of a graphical user interface and am demanding my royalties, then I sued microsoft for tossing my stupid butt to the curb. Come on people are we all the gullible?..

    This Apple patent war is essentially calling the public consumer too stupid to differentiate the word Samsung and actually believe that that is an Apple product. Oh they must have opened the case on the Apple device and seen the Samsung logo’ed components and become confused. This must be why the iPhone and iPad’s do not have removable backs.. just speculating.

    -good stuff Nick, you definitely give food for thought :) -Eric

  21. KellyGuest 3 years ago

    It’s a pretty safe bet that there is *far* more going on behind the scenes than all the patent-related news stories talk about. Samsung and Apple are in a knife fight over patents, so it would be easy to assume they’re mortal enemies. But Samsung makes the displays for the iPad 3. Microsoft is known to be bullying all vendors of Android phones with patents, but I guarantee you that for every deal where $(android_oem) pays Microsoft $(royalty) for each Android phone sold as a result of this “bullying”, another less-publicized deal exists where Microsoft pays $(android_oem) $(royalty * some decimal number) for every Windows phone they sell.

  22. A World Without Apple.Guest 3 years ago

    Wow, So much hate for Apple here. All of you need to ask yourself a simple question, If your so called heroes of the Android market succeed in killing the self made giant called “Apple”.. Where will your innovation come from then, its all good and well to steal technology but once your supply of technology is gone you have nothing. It seriously makes me wonder about the intelligence of some people. Look at the history people, the smart phone industry was a steaming pile before Apple released the iPhone. The only contenders then were Microsoft, enter Android (Google) the same people accused of spying on you and releasing your information to undesirable sources. They team up with multiple vendors under the illusion of being open source, as if thats not bad enough instead of coming up with ground breaking technology and smart software innovation they copy Apple. Now before all of you say “How dare you” I invite you to look at screen shots of your beloved devices when Android was in beta.. Look’s substantially different than the iPhone don’t you think ? It looks a lot more like Windows Mobile wouldn’t you agree… That’s because when Apple released the iPhone and Android was in it’s infancy Windows Mobile was the popular smart phone.. Seeing a pattern yet…. So I ask you if the Android platform and Mobile phone makers like samsung succeed in killing the iPhone and Windows Mobile you had better hope that you don’t need any more innovation..